'It is what it is': Trump addresses mounting COVID-19 deaths in wide-ranging interview

President Trump discussed the growing number of deaths in the U.S. caused by COVID-19 during a contentious Axios interview in which he brandished his own charts and argued the pandemic is “under control.”

“They are dying, that’s true. And you have — it is what it is,” Trump said during a conversation with Jonathan Swan that was recorded early last week but aired Monday evening on HBO. “But that doesn't mean we aren’t doing everything we can. It’s under control as much as you can control it. This is a horrible plague.”

More than 155,000 Americans have died from COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.

The federal response to the coronavirus has been criticized for months, with Trump denying it was a problem for weeks, downplaying the importance of masks for months and failing to set up national programs for testing and contact tracing.

Trump attempted to make his point that things looked bad in the U.S. only because of increased testing, an argument disputed by experts.

“You know, there are those that say you can test too much. You do know that?” Trump said.

“Who says that?” Swan asked.

“Oh, just read the manuals, read the books,” replied Trump.

Donald Trump Axios (HBO/Axios)
HBO/Axios

“Manuals? What manuals?” Swan responded. “What books?”

Much as he did in a disastrous Fox News interview in July, Trump then attempted to support his positions with data, brandishing a number of printed charts.

“Right here, the United States is lowest in numerous categories,” Trump said. “We’re lower than the world.”

“Lower than the world?” asked Swan before looking at the charts, which showed deaths as a proportion of positive cases.

Swan said he was more concerned about the number of deaths as a proportion of population, where the U.S. is doing much worse than other developed countries.

“Look at South Korea, for example,” said Swan, “51 million population, 300 deaths. It’s crazy.”

“You don’t know that,” Trump said.

“I do,” replied Swan. “You think they’re faking their statistics?”

“I won’t get into that because I have a very good relationship with that country, but you don’t know that,” insisted Trump. “And they have spikes.”

The president complained about poor performances from governors in handling the pandemic and the fact that there wasn’t a test in place when he took office in early 2017 for the disease, which was discovered in late 2019.

Trump was also asked about the legacy of John Lewis, the Georgia congressman and civil rights icon who died on July 17. When asked how he thought history would remember Lewis, Trump said he didn’t know.

“I don’t know John Lewis,” Trump said. “He chose not to come to my inauguration. I never met John Lewis, actually, I don’t believe.”

“Do you find him impressive?” asked Swan.

“I find a lot of people impressive,” Trump said. “I find many people not impressive. But no, he didn’t come to my inauguration. He didn’t come to my State of the Union speeches, and that’s OK. That’s his right. And, again, nobody has done more for Black Americans than I have. He should’ve come. I think he made a big mistake.”

The president repeatedly said that more white Americans are killed by police than Black Americans, although Swan noted each time that the rate of Black men dying by police is two and a half times higher than that of white men.

“I’ve done more for the Black community than possibly anybody with the exception of maybe Abraham Lincoln, whether you like it or not,” Trump said.

“You believe you’ve done more than Lyndon Johnson, who passed the Civil Rights Act?” asked Swan.

“How has it worked out, if you take a look at what Lyndon Johnson did?” Trump said. “Because frankly, it took a long time, and under my administration African-Americans were doing better than they had ever done in the history of this country, so I did a lot.”

During the interview, Trump also addressed the alleged bounties Russia paid to the Taliban to kill U.S. troops in Afghanistan, saying he didn’t bring it up during a conversation with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

“That was a phone call to discuss other things, and frankly, that’s an issue that many people said was fake news,” Trump said.

“You don’t believe the intelligence, that’s why?” Swan asked.

“You know, it’s interesting, nobody ever brings up China,” Trump replied after a pause. “They always bring Russia, Russia, Russia. If we can do something with Russia with nuclear proliferation, which is a very big problem, bigger problem than global warming, a much bigger problem than global warming in terms of the real world, that would be a great thing. It never reached my desk, you know why? Because they didn’t think it was intelligence. They didn’t think it was real.”

“It was in your written brief, though,” Swan said.

“If it reached my desk I would have done something about it,” said Trump, who insisted that he reads a lot, stating, “I comprehend extraordinarily well, probably better than anybody you’ve interviewed in a long time.”

From left, American real estate developer Donald Trump and his girlfriend (and future wife), former model Melania Knauss, financier (and future convicted sex offender) Jeffrey Epstein, and British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell pose together at the Mar-a-Lago club, Palm Beach, Florida, February 12, 2000. (Photo by Davidoff Studios/Getty Images)
From left: Donald Trump, his future wife Melania Knauss, Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell at Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Fla., in 2000. (Davidoff Studios/Getty Images)

During the interview, Trump also spoke about Ghislaine Maxwell, who has been alleged to be a key figure in Jeffrey Epstein’s child sex trafficking ring.

“Mr. President, Ghislaine Maxwell has been arrested on allegations of child sex trafficking. Why would you wish such a person well…” Swan began asking before Trump cut him off.

“Well, first of all, I don’t know that,” said Trump of Maxwell’s much-publicized arrest in July.

“She has. She’s been arrested for that,” Swan responded. “You know that.”

“Her friend, or boyfriend, was either killed or committed suicide in jail. She’s now in jail,” Trump said, referring to Epstein, who died in custody in August of last year. “Yeah, I wish her well. I’d wish you well. I’d wish a lot of people well. Good luck. Let them prove somebody was guilty.”

“Oh, so you’re saying you hope she doesn’t die in jail?” Swan asked. “Is that what you mean by ‘wish her well’?”

“Her boyfriend died in jail, and people are still trying to figure out how did it happen,” said Trump, who then entered into a discussion of the myriad conspiracy theories surrounding Epstein’s death. “Was it suicide? Was he killed? And I do wish her well. I’m not looking for anything bad for her. I’m not looking bad for anybody. And they took that and they made it such…”

“I mean, she’s a child sex — alleged child sex trafficker,” Swan added.

“…such a big deal,” Trump continued. “But all it is, is her boyfriend died. He died in jail. Was he killed? Was it suicide? I do. I wish her well.”

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